Resolved Băgăreţ's PK Appeal

[Anti-tankspy]

My left arm. The gun magdumping me was coming from the right.

i was aiming at ur right arm when it happened because i was behind you but w/e, it's your injury

 

[Sil]

This is... called being in affiliation with a group? Just because loyalists were not formally affiliated with Civil Protection in the way of being part of their ranks does not mean they were not culpable for the information that was given by them and the effects that came from it (raids, etc).

Difference was, there was more clarified rules behind that. If you were a loyalist, and you were caught by the rebels, then they had PK auths on you for collaborating with the Combine, that was made explicitly clear. In the current ruleset, this isn't apparent whatsoever and there isn't anything saying "by affiliating with the NG you are at PK risk"; if that's going to be the case then why aren't the rebels at risk of PK by associating with the CTE, or the CTE at risk by being enemies of NG?

 

[Deleted member 7576]

i was aiming at ur right arm when it happened because i was behind you but w/e, it's your injury

I confirm, Hyun was on the vort’s right side (I was right behind him)

 

[Sil]

I confirm, Hyun was on the vort’s right side (I was right behind him)

I read that the katana was going for the arm holding the stun baton. That was my left arm. I had assumed you were trying to cut that one off, not the arm I wasn't using whatsoever.

 

[FreeSpy]

Difference was, there was more clarified rules behind that. If you were a loyalist, and you were caught by the rebels, then they had PK auths on you for collaborating with the Combine, that was made explicitly clear. In the current ruleset, this isn't apparent whatsoever and there isn't anything saying "by affiliating with the NG you are at PK risk"; if that's going to be the case then why aren't the rebels at risk of PK by associating with the CTE, or the CTE at risk by being enemies of NG?

What I was clarifying was that you are still affiliated with the group, just not on an official matter. The actions you take part while supporting the group do not clear you of risk just because you are not officially affiliated

 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

That's not how it works. Former loyalties and allegiances can still be motives for kills.

which im not disputing, im just saying it wasn't an issue of "current loyalties"

in any case, we're not treating NG loyalism like we are combine loyalism in early helix, in large part because NG loyalists do not necessarily have the power to get someone indirectly killed in 99% of the cases & because most of the conflicts that were resolved with PK in a regular city RP environment are resolved here with NLR

Don't make these types of comments. Those PKs will be over turned if it comes to it simply based on this comment. I don't need to handle PK appeals which come with prejudice.

all im saying is that if bagaret can be PKed for his associations then there is nothing stopping that being similarly applied to the rebels (which up until now has not been, which has been a consistent point of annoyance to the NG). people aligned with this character will want blood just as much and it would be unfair and invalid to stop them if we are making the statement that this is enough

i dont think you should threaten to overturn retaliation PKs over such a situation because that seems as prejudiced as you're making me out to be

 

[Sil]

What I was clarifying was that you are still affiliated with the group, just not on an official matter. The actions you take part while supporting the group do not clear you of risk just because you are not officially affiliated

There is no established PK risk for the affiliation with them, not in an official capacity. At present, with the new map, these were the new PK rules established as per the PSA thread.

- Being found out and killed as an undercover Combine agent
- Dying to the National Guard while being on their wanted list (takes a lot to be on it. Regular deaths to them are still NLRs. You will know when you’re public enemy number one.)
- Being killed by someone who is claiming a Clan bounty on your head (rare occurrence)
- Misc PK requests based on escalating infighting & infiltration

It's clear from this thread there wasn't a Clan bounty, so that's been struck out. There was no ties to the Combine or working with the Combine regarding this, so that's struck out. I wasn't under the NG's wanted list, obviously, so that's struck out. So what remains is the Misc PK requests, which are based on escalating infighting and infiltration, something which didn't take place and is also struck out.

Being affiliated with NG =/= grounds for PK. This has never been the case and hasn't been established to be the case in any capacity.

 

[Rabid]

Posting only because @Appetite Ruining Kebab gave me permission.

This is probably one of the messiest PK's of the iteration simply because it relies on a lot of cross-faction stuff. It reminds me (not in a negative way) of the types of PK's we'd have seen in prior iterations.

I think the main points need to center around two things:

1) Was Bagaret chosen because the potential for a PK was there? If not, why not just grab any National Guard member? I'm not accusing anyone of bad faith, rather I can understand if the intent was to "make a dent" in the same way that The Resistance lost a character via a PK. The only other reason I can see is that he was alone and out on his own, but as has been made clear, he WASN'T PK'd over the mind probe stuff.

2) If the mind probe stuff is removed, the sole reason becomes "he worked with the NG" and that specifically isn't a clause leveraged at rebels.

That being said I think the fact the rules haven't been updated to reflect it shouldn't neccesarily mean that working with the NG, the guys who're open facists ruling through violence who've murdered rebels, shouldn't be punishable. That, I feel, is nitpicking. There's a pretty obvious unsaid clause in the current map.

 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

its worth nothing as well that berkhoff's PK was not for its own sake. this wasn't a "tit-for-tat"

what happened to berkhoff is a result of months-long lore which ties into the relationship between free state & lambda; the two entities are in a continuous state of cold war which has been outlined way back in ineu. berkhoff made himself a target because he consistently represented lambda in a city where such affiliations were never welcome, and insisted on doing so even when the NG continuously harrassed and beat him. he was also warned several times IC about the danger he posed to himself (at one point by an actual lambda agent which i briefly authed IC)

moreover, his death was a hostage scenario and the rebels were explicitly given the option to not defend the kebab shop/berkhoff would have been released even if they defended it as long as NG won

given the nuances involved in berkhoff's PK and the many ways it could have been avoided, it doesn't seem fair to me to deliver the same consequence to bagaret with none of the same courtesies (especially as he was already on his way to live in exile from the city; he had no intention of making himself a target any longer)

 

[Sassyy]

1) Was Bagaret chosen because the potential for a PK was there? If not, why not just grab any National Guard member? I'm not accusing anyone of bad faith, rather I can understand if the intent was to "make a dent" in the same way that The Resistance lost a character via a PK. The only other reason I can see is that he was alone and out on his own, but as has been made clear, he WASN'T PK'd over the mind probe stuff.

As I said the mind probe stuff was my full reasoning for the PK. I was the one who got the Auths for it. @Anti-tankspy & Boris were just the ones pulling the trigger as Firebug tackled me in the middle of the execution.


Like I said, I had planned this with @ovxy and others well before the capture and execution of Roger, If anything that was just the icing on the cake for myself as it granted me a lot more support from the general rebel population who were hungry for blood after the Roger situation. I just used there anger ICly to my advantage to get what I had been planning done.

This thread has became a mess though, I defo won't be replying anymore unless staff need me I just wanted to clear up the above as it seems @Rabid may of missed something due to the above reply.

 

[Revanox]

1) Was Bagaret chosen because the potential for a PK was there? If not, why not just grab any National Guard member?

He was a civilian that, instead of abstaining from conflict, voluntarily fought against the resistance alongside the National Guard.

2) Is it right that someone can invent trauma for their own RP (which is cool don't get me wrong) then that be leveraged, even partially, as a reason to PK?

Mind Probing Trauma was not roleplayed for a PK reason, but because of the intrusion into someones psyche.

 

[FreeSpy]

This thread has became a mess though, I defo won't be replying anymore unless staff need me I just wanted to clear up the above as it seems @Rabid may of missed something due to the above reply.

And with this I will put the mandatory pk appeal rules reminder that the PK Management team + SD are the ones who can make calls like this on appeals. No one else. I am happy to discuss things in private with those curious on the way I or anyone else think about the decisions we make on these appeals, and if it's an opinion that'll add to the value of the appeal we may even allow it.

 

[Sil]

If the PK sticks, then it sets a few precedents for future possible PKs that I don't think most of us want to see.

If it's okay to get PK auths on a person based on that person being involved in trauma/harm that was entirely one-sided in the RP execution, then it opens up an unpleasant can of worms for the future where people can RP having been harmed by an encounter with another player, even if the other player was being neutral or cooperative on the matter, and use that harm as justification to PK the person. That person doesn't have to have actively done anything with the intent of harm, only the perception and self imposition of harm would be needed for future PKs like this.

If that element is dropped and the auths are shifted to collaboration with NG, then it puts everyone who is affiliated with any rebel faction at risk of PK from National Guard due to their affiliation with people who may have at some point attacked them or worked with others who wanted to attack them. This also grows from National Guard towards really any other faction or cell, which can have a horrible domino effect of one group killing all the members of another due to their affiliations with someone who had harmed the original group, even if that harm had no involvement of the other.

Keep in mind that the justification of "NG are the baddies so anyone who associates with them is evil" isn't valid either. They had some rules, and even in the beginning were quite relaxed and lenient with them, but it was on the rebels to proactively resist and go against them; most of the conflict was actually between the NG and the Combine, whilst the CTE did their own stuff in the background. The Club incident definitely sparked the rift between NG and the Rebels, but the NG didn't fire on the club because of the rebels but because the CTE refused to let them exercise their authority inside. That whole conflict wasn't a "fuck you" to rebels, it was a "fuck you" to the CTE.

 

[Deleted member 7576]

so
ng affiliation shouldn't be pkable, but lambda should?

its not even full affiliation when it comes to lambda, it's just sympathies that can get you pkd
extremely retarded if you can't get PKd for actively aiding National Guard, going as far as shooting people with them, but liking lambda gets you hanged

now THAT will be a bad precedent to set

It seems like double standards to me

 

[Rabid]

so
ng affiliation shouldn't be pkable, but lambda should?

its not even full affiliation when it comes to lambda, it's just sympathies that can get you pkd
extremely retarded if you can't get PKd for actively aiding National Guard, going as far as shooting people with them, but liking lambda gets you hanged

now THAT will be a bad precedent to set

It seems like double standards to me

It'd be double standards if the NG had rolled up, dragged the guy off and killed him dead without any sort of warning tbf.

But not when the guy was told repeatedly even by other undercover agents not to show the symbol, got beaten up by the NG and warned about wearing it, etc. There's only so many times you can yell "TURN BACK FROM THIS PATH" to someone before something has to happen.

 

[Deleted member 7576]

It'd be double standards if the NG had rolled up, dragged the guy off and killed him dead without any sort of warning tbf.

Not when the guy was told repeatedly even by other undercover agents not to show the symbol, got beaten up by the NG and warned about wearing it, etc. There's only so many times you can yell "TURN BACK FROM THIS PATH" to someone before something has to happen.

doesnt change the fact people seem to think one should be pkable and the other shouldn't

the amount of times one is warned of their wrongdoing plays no significant part in this, ng could do just that, roll up and kill him, but they didn't

 

[Rabid]

doesnt change the fact people seem to think one should be pkable and the other shouldn't

But he wasn't killed for aiding the NG, he was killed for specifically probing someone's mind with OOC consent and the player deciding it was so traumatic to their character that they wanted to kill him. Sassyy said the rest of it was just an excuse IC to get other rebels to help wrangle him for the killing while they were all riled up.

Meanwhile you have someone being told "don't do this, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this" until there's nowhere else to go.

C'mon man, you've been staff. You know the argument you're making isn't black and white.

the amount of times one is warned of their wrongdoing plays no significant part in this, ng could do just that, roll up and kill him, but they didn't

Yes it does, because if they keep doing it even past the point they're warned to stop and they die because of it, that's on them for still doing it.

At that point the other party has done everything short of saying "I WILL PK YOU IF YOU KEEP DOING THIS" which shouldn't be neccesary when you're being beat up and threatened and the OTHER undercover agents are telling you "dude, you're gonna end up fucked up if you wear that around here, stop it."

 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

so
ng affiliation shouldn't be pkable, but lambda should?

its not even full affiliation when it comes to lambda, it's just sympathies that can get you pkd
extremely retarded if you can't get PKd for actively aiding National Guard, going as far as shooting people with them, but liking lambda gets you hanged

its literally just a story based law that can be dodged as easily as denying anything in interrogation. over an entity that doesn't functionally exist in the current map.

should rebels who defend shops be PKable because them preventing the NG from creating outposts in the city is indirectly helping the combine? (the whole reason marshal took power in the first place) because that's the extent of what it means to apply what you said fairly across the board

 

[Deleted member 7576]

its literally just a story based law that can be dodged as easily as denying anything in interrogation. over an entity that doesn't functionally exist in the current map.

should rebels who defend shops be PKable because them preventing the NG from creating outposts in the city is indirectly helping the combine? (the whole reason marshal took power in the first place) because that's the extent of what it means to apply what you said fairly across the board

I hope what you say is true because I know there are a few people in the guard who will grasp at all the straws they can find just to get rid of someone. If it's as easy as denying shit in an interrogation, then I feel at ease.

I don't have anything else to add

 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

I hope what you say is true because I know there are a few people in the guard who will grasp at all the straws they can find just to get rid of someone. If it's as easy as denying shit in an interrogation, then I feel at ease.

I don't have anything else to add

there have been a few incidents, yeah, i've stood in the way every single time; in general all the public executions go through me

glad youre reassured