EU Referendum

[A_cRaZeD_hObO]

ireland's tied to the UK a lot in regards to economy and trading so we'll see. we only joined because they did, really



also this thread is literal shit

 

[harry]

refugees are actually fairly nice people who are good to talk to except a very small minority who are horrible (which every country has in its own citizens)

 

[ricefields]

i've already found racist comments in this

lol

 

[Expax]

Do you vote for Sverigedemokraterne?

sverigedemokraterna represent

 

[ruben slikk]

Illegal immigrants don't come from inside the EU, so leaving it won't change that.

they... do? as soon as they get in from, say, italy or something, they can go wherever the fuck thanks to muh schengen.

(note: i'm not ripping on schengen, it's pretty good. i just wanted to correct that)

People get worried a lot about the border issues. If the UK leaves it won't stop people coming into the country. Switzerland isn't in the EU but people can go there without any trouble.

because switzerland is in the schengen zone, without being in the EU


the UK is in the EU, but it is not in the schengen zone

Please explain how the >>GOVERNMENTS<< ECONOMY

will affect me?

the governments economy dictates the country's economy, such as, oh i don't know, the price of the shit you buy every day to sustain yourself, aswell as possible tax raises

so what would you do if a bunch of boats with starving children, women and men fleeing from war showed up in your countries' docks and said that they dont want to stay in your country but move along (in this case, the refugees want to go to germany but Bulgaria closed their borders and are shooting on sight) to another country?

Send them back or keep them, don't let them pass through and put the burden on another country.

 

[Martinerrr]

There's a lot of opinions about refugees being thrown around here but why not look at some facts?

The European Union is a political and economical union. It's created a monetary union of which more than half of the member-states partake, this means there is one currency used throughout all these nations. There being more than one currency in my neighboring countries is something I can not easily comprehend as this was implemented in full force in 2002, when I was only 6 years old. However, I can comprehend how simple it is to cross the border and pay with the same currency - it's like the United States of America, consider all the states having a different currency - it's most likely unpleasant, especially with all the exchange fees and calculations involved. For example, I remember going to Italy last year on a road trip with my friends. I can not imagine how I would have done it if I had to buy different currencies and estimate how much I was going to spend every nation we passed through.

There's also the free movement of workers, any citizen of the European Union can work wherever they please inside the European Union. This has actually led to many arguments, since cheap workers from across can come to where the pay is high. However, it's also very benefiting for the students that come across for a better education. I know of multiple Universities that have International courses where students from everywhere in the European Union go to because it has high credentials, they can live and work there whereas without the European Union they must most likely require a visa.

The European Union is protective of it's own trade. Organizations around the world like the World Trade Organization are against this, because it hinders globalization and international division of labor in favor of the European Union. As example, the Ukraine wants to become member of the European Union because it won't have to worry about import- and export quotas. Which if you didn't already know are done in such a way that export is cheap for the European Union and import is expensive, therefore causing production to be done inside the European Union instead of outside of it and increasing the European Union's GDP.

All in all, I can continue for a long while with facts that the European Union is only positive for an economy that has seen only bad days in the last 5-10 years and which is now starting to stand up from it's knees and make a recovery - abandoning the European Union is not something you should do when the economy is in a bad shape and hope that it gets better. There are however some troubling legislative policies being pushed through by the European governing institutions like the way refugees are being dealt with but the acceptance is now being limited to only so much and there is yet much to be worked on. I do think there should be more confidence in the European Union. There's always a finger to be pointed and something to be complained about.

 

[abcdefg]

they... do? as soon as they get in from, say, italy or something, they can go wherever the fuck thanks to muh schengen.

key word: -sNIPPPp

 

[Saggy]

Only one thing I can argue with here:

The European Union is a political and economical union. It's created a monetary union of which more than half of the member-states partake, this means there is one currency used throughout all these nations. There being more than one currency in my neighboring countries is something I can not easily comprehend as this was implemented in full force in 2002, when I was only 6 years old. However, I can comprehend how simple it is to cross the border and pay with the same currency - it's like the United States of America, consider all the states having a different currency - it's most likely unpleasant, especially with all the exchange fees and calculations involved. For example, I remember going to Italy last year on a road trip with my friends. I can not imagine how I would have done it if I had to buy different currencies and estimate how much I was going to spend every nation we passed through.

Having the same currency can be extremely beneficial, however because of the varying levels of development inside the European Union and different currencies it is impossible to maintain. Everyone using the same currency means everyone must follow the same monetary policy (to some extent) and different countries are restricted from acting in certain ways as they might damage the currency that they all use. In my opinion separate countries should have separate currencies because otherwise the effects of a decision in one country will be felt across all countries which use the same currency.
Of course it is practical - extremely practical, me and my family travelled through a few countries to get to Holland so turned pounds into euros and it was fine, it would be incredibly awkward to have to translate into each currency and estimate how much you might need. But it is still risky and restrictive for the economy of all countries involved to use a common currency.

It was pretty smart in my opinion for us to keep the sterling and not move to the euro, and whilst it was disputed previously seeing how well the euro has done has only confirmed that using the same currency can have detremental effect.


Other than that seems all good ;)

 

[Martinerrr]

Having the same currency can be extremely beneficial, however because of the varying levels of development inside the European Union and different currencies it is impossible to maintain. Everyone using the same currency means everyone must follow the same monetary policy (to some extent) and different countries are restricted from acting in certain ways as they might damage the currency that they all use.
In my opinion separate countries should have separate currencies because otherwise the effects of a decision in one country will be felt across all countries which use the same currency.
Of course it is practical - extremely practical, me and my family travelled through a few countries to get to Holland so turned pounds into euros and it was fine, it would be incredibly awkward to have to translate into each currency and estimate how much you might need. But it is still risky and restrictive for the economy of all countries involved.

There is an entire institute in the European Union that focuses on the development of foreign currencies, it's called the European Central Bank. It administrates and controls the monetary policy within all member-states that partake in the monetary union, which does limit member-states to govern themselves. However, it's there to guard the value of the Euro. It maintains price stability, fights inflation and has the right to create banknotes. A single nation can not quickly make a decision that can harm all the member-states as you so claim because of this institute. To even become a member of the monetary union one must first pass criteria to converge the differences nations have and lead to a stable economic situation.

 

[Saggy]

It administrates and controls the monetary policy within all member-states that partake in the monetary union

That statement is a problem, the monetary policy of the UK should lie with Parliament in the UK. (and for the most part does)

However, it's there to guard the value of the Euro. It maintains price stability, fights inflation and has the right to create banknotes.

My point is this doesn't have to happen if everyone uses independent currency, the existance of the European Central Bank is the issue.

A single nation can not quickly make a decision that can harm all the member-states as you so claim because of this institute.

What you are saying is that we cannot make a decision which effects the Euro because the bank in reference wont let us, not that there is no decision which might do that.

 

[Martinerrr]

That statement is a problem, the monetary policy of the UK should lie with Parliament in the UK.
My point is this doesn't have to happen if everyone uses independent currency, the existance of the European Central Bank is the issue.
What you are saying is that we cannot make a decision which effects the Euro because the bank in reference wont let us, not that there is no decision which might do that.

Non sequitur, your conclusion isn't logical.

The existence of the European Central Bank is not an issue because the UK Parliament doesn't use the Euro and therefore the monetary policy is in line with the UK Parliament, as you wish. If it were to use the Euro then an institute like the European Central Bank is mandatory otherwise a single nation can quickly make a decision that can harm all the member-states, which is something you were worried about and I paraphrased. If all countries would not use the same currency then there would be no need for the European Central Bank to safe-guard the same currency, correct. However, there would also not be the benefits of having the same currency which you agreed were "extremely beneficial" and "extremely practical".

 

[Saggy]

Non sequitur, your conclusion isn't logical.

The existence of the European Central Bank is not an issue because the UK Parliament doesn't use the Euro and therefore the monetary policy is in line with the UK Parliament, as you wish. If it were to use the Euro then an institute like the European Central Bank is mandatory otherwise a single nation can quickly make a decision that can harm all the member-states, which is something you were worried about and I paraphrased

My conclusion is completely logical, you just don't seem to understand what I'm saying.

The point I am making is that the pros of being in the monetary union are far outweighed by the cons.

The main pro is "It is more practical." which I accept, that is 100% true.

The main cons are "We lose power over our monetary sovereignty." and "The Euro is doing poorly in comparison to the Sterling."
In my opinion the cons are huge and the pro in comparison is meagre.

My argument never has been "Because one country could make a decision and fuck everyone else over.", I did state that, and then said immediately after "To counteract this the EU has restricted the monetary policy of all of the countries in the monetary union." which is the real issue and my real opposition.

The European Bank stops decisions in one country fucking everyone else over (by saying they cant make that decision) and I accept that, but the only way it can do this would undermine our sovereignty (if we joined) and therefore I am opposed.

 

[Martinerrr]

"The Euro is doing poorly in comparison to the Sterling."

You should do some research, especially if this is your main point of view.

 

[Saggy]

You should do some research, especially if this is your main point of view.

Looks like a steady climb to me, overall improvements. There's been dips and spikes, but the trend is clear. Pound is both more valuable and is increasing it's value in comparison to the Euro.

 

[abcdefg]

Looks like a steady climb to me, overall improvements. There's been dips and spikes, but the trend is clear. Pound is both more valuable and is increasing it's value in comparison to the Euro.

mind giving the source and link to the website you found this from?

 

[Saggy]

mind giving the source and link to the website you found this from?

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=EUR&view=5Y

 

[Martinerrr]

Looks like a steady climb to me, overall improvements. There's been dips and spikes, but the trend is clear. Pound is both more valuable and is increasing it's value in comparison to the Euro.

This is what I hoped you wouldn't do. Give a graph of today's statistics, beats my argument and backs up yours in a way true. This only counts for the Sterling though.

I, however, meant to look at the past - before the introduction of the Euro and after it's introduction. It's like comparing apples to oranges, you can't really compare your graph you just gave to the Euro if your argument is that there shouldn't be a Euro because there are no statistics of how your Sterling would do if the Euro didn't exist.

 

[Saggy]

This is what I hoped you wouldn't do. Give a graph of today's statistics, beats my argument and backs up yours in a way true. This only counts for the Sterling though.

I, however, meant to look at the past - before the introduction of the Euro and after it's introduction. It's like comparing apples to oranges, you can't really compare your graph you just gave to the Euro if your argument is that there shouldn't be a Euro because there are no statistics of how your Sterling would do if the Euro didn't exist.

If the Euro never became a thing who knows what would happen, the sterling was more valuable than most of the European currencies before the Euro came about and to be honest I think we would remain above average but our lead would be lessened. The Euro as a whole has been beneficial to the sterling, and I think if the Euro were not introduced we wouldn't be doing as well. So the Euro helped us, and not joining it also helped us. But in helping us the Euro has fucked over the rest of Europe.

 

[LatvianViking]

I wish Latvia hadn't joined the EU. Ever since it joined, everything has been becoming worse and worse. Why couldn't we just stay in NATO?

 

[Entora]

I wish Latvia hadn't joined the EU. Ever since it joined, everything has been becoming worse and worse. Why couldn't we just stay in NATO?

latvia is still in NATO