History questions with Havok.

[Deleted member 3129]

I wish to know something about the green detailed section of this map of Europa;

When you hear the word "Europe" you don't immediately think of these countries. This is because the countries in green are very different to the blue countries in terms of history and culture.

Why is this?
Why is there such a prevalent divide in culture, it's almost like a wall, a line even that goes straight down the eastern half of Europe?

It fascinates me. Europe is perhaps one of the smallest continents on the planet yet there is such a vast history and it has a very diverse populace.

My thesis for why the green and blue countries are different in so many ways go back to medieval times. To the great schism (do your own research) infact. Look at these maps.

It details Christian Orthodoxy in Europe. The other half is and has been catholic since the ancient times. I think that one of the reason that there is a divide in culture, mentality, morals, etc. Is thanks to the divide in Christianity, the people living in these regions characterize their differences in the aforementioned; mentality, culture, morals, ect..

One can only imagine a fictional history of Europe is it was entirely Catholic from the middle ages to this point. I don't know how to feel about it.

Am I a schizo?

 

[Deleted member 4609]

One can only imagine a fictional history of Europe is it was entirely Catholic from the middle ages to this point. I don't know how to feel about it.

Am I a schizo?

Nothing wrong with finding History fascinating, I myself have a really weird thing for Greek Mythology which was only exacerbated by playing the game Hades so much over the last year, lead to me going down a lot of rabbit holes and thoughts about how things could've panned out differently

You're not a schizo x

 

[Simman102]

When you hear the word "Europe" you don't immediately think of these countries.

No, uh, I don't?
You start off by projecting your own cognitive bias onto others so I can already tell the rest of the post is gonna be dodgy

Why is there such a prevalent divide in culture, it's almost like a wall, a line even that goes straight down the eastern half of Europe?

Yeah I can think of a couple rea--

To the great schism (do your own research) infact.

Without delving into the topic too much, look at the two maps and you can immediately spot something that goes against your argument - Greece
Actually, Poland isn't orthodox, why isn't it coloured blue then?
If you're gonna base it on religion, do you not think you ought to take the protestant reformation and the subsequent counter-reformation into consideration too?
There is a multitude of reasons, throughout history. Proximity to USSR for example or the Ottoman Empire (or even being under occupation of the two). Trying to pin it down to a single religious event is equal to ignoring about ten centuries of history

 

[Raiden]

No, uh, I don't?
You start off by projecting your own cognitive bias onto others so I can already tell the rest of the post is gonna be dodgy

Yeah I can think of a couple rea--

Without delving into the topic too much, look at the two maps and you can immediately spot something that goes against your argument - Greece
Actually, Poland isn't orthodox, why isn't it coloured blue then?
If you're gonna base it on religion, do you not think you ought to take the protestant reformation and the subsequent counter-reformation into consideration too?
There is a multitude of reasons, throughout history. Proximity to USSR for example or the Ottoman Empire (or even being under occupation of the two). Trying to pin it down to a single religious event is equal to ignoring about ten centuries of history

Who cares about Poland though

 

[MaelRadecs]

Am I a schizo?

yeah

/thread

 

[Mute]

this threads weird western larping

 

[Deleted member 61]

Havok Spinsun.

Your research paper seems to revolve around the idea of the divide in European culture, morality and mentality, but you fail to define what exactly the differences between them are. There may be differences, but you have to define it without simply writing broad statements most people could shrug and say, 'sure, where is this leading?'. You might also argue that if you were to argue the differences between Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox Christianity are the primary reason for the differences, you would also have to explain how the rise of Protestantism plays into these factors if we are extending the effects to the modern day. Nevertheless, the lack of a time to contrast the effects of the Great Schism runs the risk of ignoring state actor actions, cultural or social influences into the equation. Has the Great Schism truly been the defining factor into the difference between Western and Eastern Europe? If you're going to make an argument define your terms and cite sources if you want to be persuasive.

2/10.

— Prof. McGee​

 

[Bronn]

the west is more connected ethnically and culturally with its predecessors than the east and has remained relatively consistent throughout history

the east is like a mixed bag of potatoes from different parts of the world and most countries in the east are relatively newly founded compared to the ones in the west

you have the romans, the greeks, the bulgarians, the ottomans, the russians and etc.

each originate from elsewhere in the world and have their own culture or religion unrelated to the western tribes at the times

each has ruled and collapsed at some point before being able to stabilize and unite

each replaced by another from a different culture or tribe

that's the reason behind the divide in my opinion

 

[Andrew]

 

[Hunk]

Why is there such a prevalent divide in culture, it's almost like a wall, a line even that goes straight down the eastern half of Europe?

Not sure if someone has already answered you but,

It mostly has to do with their ancestry.

Most blue countries were heavily influenced by the Roman Empire, with the exception of England (minor influence) and the Nordic countries.

I know, it's always about the Roman Empire - but truth is that IT REALLY IS! Romans were the first nation to create a coagulated law system similar to ours that wasn't based purely on religion/tradition/habits. Rome had multiple types of courts, they had assemblies, elections, they had people's assemblies, and above all, they essentially created what we know as "Private property" (Just a curious fact). Not to speak that they were a major pioneer in written laws.

So, with the expansion of Rome throughout all the known Europe, its culture quickly became a major influence in the local ones (despite the local cultures never getting truly "absorbed").

When the Roman Empire fell, the local cultures of its old provinces slowly became a mix of Local and Roman culture. And even when the Nordic countries colonized the south of Europe, their own culture saw itself being influenced by it.

Spoiler: Another curious fact

Another curious fact is that the nordic people (Vikings/barbarians/germans) never really "invaded" Rome. The "invasion" wasn't a hegemonic process and the barbarians often saw the Romans opening their doors and allowing them to settle mainly because some of the barbarian tribes were used as mercenaries to fight the Germans.

When medieval societies began to evolve and mainly when the Holy Roman Empire began to form, roman culture saw itself influencing Europe once again essentially because some eastern roman emperors left big collections of ancient roman documents and law files that served as examples for nations like the Holy Roman Empire to use it as an example and adapt it to their own lifestyle.

During the foundation of the University of Bologna (one of the first European universities), roman culture and roman law also were used as examples for future studies and therefore influenced it and most things we all know today.

Well, you get the most basic picture of it: although each period of history has its own characteristics, most of the blue countries got their influence from the same place(Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Germany, England but way less).

If you think about it, every single thing we know today in politics, law, and statecraft was initially invented by the Greeks or the Romans.
[doublepost=1640558772][/doublepost]

Not sure if someone has already answered you but,

It mostly has to do with their ancestry.

Most blue countries were heavily influenced by the Roman Empire, with the exception of England (minor influence) and the Nordic countries.

I know, it's always about the Roman Empire - but truth is that IT REALLY IS! Romans were the first nation to create a coagulated law system similar to ours that wasn't based purely on religion/tradition/habits. Rome had multiple types of courts, they had assemblies, elections, they had people's assemblies, and above all, they essentially created what we know as "Private property" in law (Just a curious fact). Not to speak that they were a major pioneer in written laws.

So, with the expansion of Rome throughout all the known Europe, its culture quickly became a major influence in the local ones (despite the local cultures never getting truly "absorbed").

When the Roman Empire fell, the local cultures of its old provinces slowly became a mix of Local and Roman culture. And even when the Nordic countries colonized the south of Europe, their own culture saw itself being influenced by it.

Spoiler: Another curious fact

Another curious fact is that the nordic people (Vikings/barbarians/germans) never really "invaded" Rome. The "invasion" wasn't a hegemonic process and the barbarians often saw the Romans opening their doors and allowing them to settle mainly because some of the barbarian tribes were used as mercenaries to fight the Germans.

When medieval societies began to evolve and mainly when the Holy Roman Empire began to form, roman culture saw itself influencing Europe once again essentially because some eastern roman emperors left big collections of ancient roman documents and law files that served as examples for nations like the Holy Roman Empire to use it as an example and adapt it to their own lifestyle.

During the foundation of the University of Bologna (one of the first European universities), roman culture and roman law also were used as examples for future studies and therefore influenced it and most things we all know today.

Well, you get the most basic picture of it: although each period of history has its own characteristics, most of the blue countries got their influence from the same place(Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Germany, England but way less).

If you think about it, every single thing we know today in politics, law, and statecraft was initially invented by the Greeks or the Romans.

 

[Hunk]

Not sure if someone has already answered you but,

It mostly has to do with their ancestry.

Most blue countries were heavily influenced by the Roman Empire, with the exception of England (minor influence) and the Nordic countries.

I know, it's always about the Roman Empire - but truth is that IT REALLY IS! Romans were the first nation to create a coagulated law system similar to ours that wasn't based purely on religion/tradition/habits. Rome had multiple types of courts, they had assemblies, elections, they had people's assemblies, and above all, they essentially created what we know as "Private property" (Just a curious fact). Not to speak that they were a major pioneer in written laws.

So, with the expansion of Rome throughout all the known Europe, its culture quickly became a major influence in the local ones (despite the local cultures never getting truly "absorbed").

When the Roman Empire fell, the local cultures of its old provinces slowly became a mix of Local and Roman culture. And even when the Nordic countries colonized the south of Europe, their own culture saw itself being influenced by it.

Spoiler: Another curious fact

Another curious fact is that the nordic people (Vikings/barbarians/germans) never really "invaded" Rome. The "invasion" wasn't a hegemonic process and the barbarians often saw the Romans opening their doors and allowing them to settle mainly because some of the barbarian tribes were used as mercenaries to fight the Germans.

When medieval societies began to evolve and mainly when the Holy Roman Empire began to form, roman culture saw itself influencing Europe once again essentially because some eastern roman emperors left big collections of ancient roman documents and law files that served as examples for nations like the Holy Roman Empire to use it as an example and adapt it to their own lifestyle.

During the foundation of the University of Bologna (one of the first European universities), roman culture and roman law also were used as examples for future studies and therefore influenced it and most things we all know today.

Well, you get the most basic picture of it: although each period of history has its own characteristics, most of the blue countries got their influence from the same place(Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Germany, England but way less).

If you think about it, every single thing we know today in politics, law, and statecraft was initially invented by the Greeks or the Romans.
[doublepost=1640558772][/doublepost]

This is basically what I've collected from my teachers and books while studying in the university

Regarding the green countries. I'm not so familiar with their ancient social systems nor how the details of their history played off but what I know is:

Most countries in the eastern ended up getting stripped off from the Romans by, for example, Dacians and the Persians iirc.

Most balkan countries had Islamic laws and institutions within their territory at some point in history.

The russian have large ties with people outside Europe.

Romania is the only Slavic country that adopted the Latin alphabet and retained some of the Latin cultural influence
[doublepost=1640560358][/doublepost]In the end, Rome and Christianity were the two major influences on the historical and social division you mentioned.

Most countries to the west adopted and adapted the structural and juridical society Rome had created...later allowed the church of christianity to submit them to God.

...while countries to the east saw themselves influenced by other major kingdoms that weren't destroyed by Rome and the creation of Islam.

Not to mention that the geographical aspects of Europe and Arabia/Africa/Asia are overall different and that has an affect on culture too.

 

[Mute]

Romania is the only Slavic country that adopted the Latin alphabet and retained some of the Latin cultural influence

?

 

[Hunk]

?

does Macedonia use too?

nvm no they dont

 

[Mute]

does Macedonia use too?

No?

Romanians arent slavic

Serbs use the latin alphabet in addition to
cyrillic

it has nothing to do with islamic laws (Iberia had an islamic presence for 4 centuries)

the biggest factors were colonization, industrialization, foreign powers intervening and communism

 

[Hunk]

No?

Romanians arent slavic

Serbs use the latin alphabet in addition to
cyrillic

it has nothing to do with islamic laws (Iberia had an islamic presence for 4 centuries)

the biggest factors were colonization, industrialization, foreign powers intervening and communism

I was mainly referring to culture and social factors and not really politics. Communism was way too recent to have a major impact on a division that has been clear for centuries plus he asked about European countries. As far as I know, Europeans were the colonizers.

Islam had a greater influence in Iberia.

Regarding foreign powers, my whole thesis is based on some-what-foreign powers intervening.

Romanians arent slavic then, my bad.
[doublepost=1640565468][/doublepost]But it sure had an impact so you aren't wrong

 

[Bronn]

I was mainly referring to culture and social factors and not really politics. Communism was way too recent to have a major impact on a division that has been clear for centuries plus he asked about European countries. As far as I know, Europeans were the colonizers.

communism did have a large impact, but so did the ottomans for the time ruled over the balkans

 

[Hunk]

communism did have a large impact, but so did the ottomans for the time ruled over the balkans

ye

 

[Mute]

I was mainly referring to culture and social factors and not really politics. Communism was way too recent to have a major impact on a division that has been clear for centuries plus he asked about European countries. As far as I know, Europeans were the colonizers.

Islam had a greater influence in Iberia.

Regarding foreign powers, my whole thesis is based on some-what-foreign powers intervening.

Romanians arent slavic then, my bad.
[doublepost=1640565468][/doublepost]But it sure had an impact so you aren't wrong

My point was that it’s an arbitrary divide and a relic of the cold war

I mean, in Havok’s map Greece and Cyprus has been put under western Europe, despite being way more similar to Turkey/S. Slavs than France/Britain/Germany/Scandinavia, it’s cause they weren’t part of the communist bloc (I suppose the other reason might be the Wests hard-on for antiquity)

There might be a divide but it isn’t based on clear cut line on borders and arbitrary political divides, it’s not about religion either cause as Simman said, everything north of Croatia/Hungary is catholic

The part about Roman influence mentioned earlier is weird, considering that Rome existed up until the 15th century, and was present in the Balkans

It’s generally due to; The “West” colonizing the New World, Africa, Oceania and a giant chunk of Asia which also lead to the decline of the Silk Road and trade in the East, the “East”’s failure to effectively industrialize at the speed of the old and new European powers, long-term foreign occupation (Ottomans, Austria, Russia, etc), Communism in the case of the Soviet Bloc and extremely recent conflicts and political crisis in the case of Ex-Yu

 

[Chromesthesia_]

I am from Bosnia, take me to America
I really want to see Statue of Liberty
I can no longer wait, take me to United States
Take me to Golden Gate, I will assimilate
The grass is always greener in neighbour's court-yard
I wish to leave this nightmare go to a promised land
Please, take me to your leader, I want my green card
I want to fly over like a rocket from the Balkans
I want to start all over and turn a new page
Forget this dreadful story, escape the stone age
I'm waiting for a chance to get out of the cage
I feel like a slave on a minimal wage
I am from Bosnia, take me to America
I really want to see Statue of Liberty
I can no longer wait, take me to United States
Take me to Golden Gate, I will assimilate
One day when you reach the end
One day you will understand
One day back to roots my friend
No place like a motherland
One day when you reach the end
One day you will understand
One day back to roots my friend
No place like a motherland
I hoped I'll find what I need, I'll be free like a bird
Now we're pushed in a ghetto like the sheep in a herd
All the promises I heard became empty words
Completely disconnected from the rest of the world
The grass is never greener in neighbour's court-yard
I want to start all over return to no man's land
Send greetings to your leader, don't want your green card
I want to fly back like a rocket to the Balkans
I am from Bosnia, take me to America
I really want to see Statue of Liberty
I can no longer wait, take me to United States
Take me to Golden Gate, I will assimilate
One day when you reach the end
One day you will understand
One day back to roots my friend
No place like a motherland
One day when you reach the end
One day you will understand
One day back to roots my friend
No place like a motherland