After-Life S2RP System Feedback

[Hęłupiąż]

the fundamental flaw in your argument is that there are many people who don't like S2K, who don't want to participate in S2K, and are upset that they find themselves ostracized from large server events because they invariably involve S2K in order to resolve the fights that occur within them

is your solution to just tell them to fuck off elsewhere?

My solution is to grow up and to play a pacifist character, that cannot fight. Play damn loyalist or w/e. It all sounds like a great skill issue. Not to mention that it's a Source based HL2 video game, not VR chat. I think that paragraph above described it perfectly.

 

[MaXenzie]

My solution is to grow up and to play a pacifist character, that cannot fight. Play damn loyalist or w/e. It all sounds like a great skill issue. Not to mention that it's a Source based HL2 video game, not VR chat.

woe betide the people who roleplay for different reasons than you i suppose

 

[Hęłupiąż]

woe betide the people who roleplay for different reasons than you i suppose

I Roleplay to create interesting scenarios and stories, that are often violent in nature, just like the HL2 setting is. I like how it can impact me and others involved. One character, that has 2 days of action, can have much more interesting arcs and developments, than most of those 10k hours characters.
I ask you, what you roleplay for?
Your experience is meant to be some surgically controlled sterile room and VR chat, where you spend 1000k talking as some imaginary >INSERT NAME<? Playing, as Rebel-Loyalist 200 Premmium Citizen, that collects rations every hour and goes afk? Like come on, stop pretending, as if Passivity of roleplay, breed from restrictive OOC rules, is some diving dogma of HL2RP and what HL2RP should be.

 

[MaXenzie]

alright @Berke time for philosophical espousing and a showcase of the difference between ideology in a roleplay space

Here are my worries though. In a forum based roleplay, in a discord channel or a DnD game with your friends, all roleplay that takes place is voluntary per se, that is not the case with HL2RP which is probably what makes it shine IMO. You are in a server with many other people, a world that moves on without you that has draconian rules that you are expected to comply.

i disagree with this.
i roleplay on HL2RP in spite of it being draconian, confrontational, and actively hostile to its playerbase. i would vastly prefer if people were generally cooperative and held less of a "fuck you, got mine" attitude when it came to things like character death or story development. there is a gulf of a difference between a scene that is awful for your character to be in, and a scene that's awful for your enjoyment or mental health, which i generally think should be avoided wherever possible.
Roleplay isn't a zero-sum game, it is possible for everyone to have fun without one party being stuffed into a sack and kicked repeatedly

i derive no enjoyment from the trudgery of being abused on the regular, i don't find it fun and it's part of why historically the characters i've made have all been incapable of being abused, either due to lack of human psychology or only interacting with characters played by people i personally trust

In most forms of roleplay where combat is simulated over roleplay via text, you cannot even permanently kill other players' characters without their consent but that is not the case in HL2RP which I mentioned above.

i prefer the former over the latter
i say with confidence that 90% of the crippling, systemic issues in HL2RP come from the existence of nonconsensual PKs and the idea that some invisible force can just decide that your character's dead now, and your only reprieve is hoping someone somewhere fucked up, and that the arbitrary rules that decide when they can snatch your character away from you have been broken

i take a lot of issue with the modern sentiment i've heard about "The Revolving Door of Characters"
this idea that characters NEED to die for the server to stay alive is insane to me, because it's inherently predatory

think of it like this, right:
YOU hold the view that HL2RP should be gruelling and unfair and characters should die and it should be grimdark sad bad bad sad times
i think you're totally allowed to do that, you can kill off your characters as much as you want and put them through all the torment you like!
but do you think you have a right to force others to do the same thing? would you be upset if you opted to do the thing you wanted to do, while others opted to do the thing they wanted to do?

the main reason the server is planning on cordoning off S2RP and S2K is specifically so the people who enjoy different things can do those different things without treading on the other
you can extrapolate that to many other avenues of roleplay
i won't yuck your yum, but don't try to force your yum down my throat, that kinda thing

Oh god, the timescale. Do I even need to talk about timescale? Anyone who played on nebulous who did a P2L melee fight with a CP Unit or even another citizen will know what I mean. How do you intend to solve those issues? I saw @PepicWalrus address that it will be mechanicized, but how? How do you intend to force players to resolve their conflicts in a fair way that also makes metagame harder? S2RP also paves the way for bad faith actors metagaming, that is an issue to consider.

concretely i know there'll be a roll system, that's for sure
it'll be concrete enough that admin intervention will effectively be
"admin, the guy im fighting is breaking the rules and refusing to roll/ignoring a result"
*admin checks logs*
"oi, quit it"

no need to 24/7 watching over a fight, it'd be about the same amount of intervention as someone getting stuck on a prop

 

[MaXenzie]

I Roleplay to create interesting scenarios and stories, that are often violent in nature, just like the HL2 setting is. I like how it can impact me and others involved. One character, that has 2 days of action, can have much more interesting arcs and developments, than most of those 10k hours characters.
I ask you, what you roleplay for?
Your experience is meant to be some surgically controlled sterile room and VR chat, where you spend 1000k talking as some imaginary >INSERT NAME<? Playing, as Rebel-Loyalist 200 Premmium Citizen, that collects rations every hour and goes afk? Like come on, stop pretending, as if Passivity of roleplay, breed from restrictive OOC rules, is some diving dogma of HL2RP and what HL2RP should be.

holding the idea that there's even an idea of what HL2RP should be is why we're having this disagreement in the first place

HL2RP isn't ontologically SUPPOSED to be anything beyond roleplay set in the Half-Life 2 setting. anything else you attribute to it is effectively headcanon.

 

[Hęłupiąż]

alright @Berke time for philosophical espousing and a showcase of the difference between ideology in a roleplay space



i disagree with this.
i roleplay on HL2RP in spite of it being draconian, confrontational, and actively hostile to its playerbase. i would vastly prefer if people were generally cooperative and held less of a "fuck you, got mine" attitude when it came to things like character death or story development. there is a gulf of a difference between a scene that is awful for your character to be in, and a scene that's awful for your enjoyment or mental health, which i generally think should be avoided wherever possible.
Roleplay isn't a zero-sum game, it is possible for everyone to have fun without one party being stuffed into a sack and kicked repeatedly

i derive no enjoyment from the trudgery of being abused on the regular, i don't find it fun and it's part of why historically the characters i've made have all been incapable of being abused, either due to lack of human psychology or only interacting with characters played by people i personally trust



i prefer the former over the latter
i say with confidence that 90% of the crippling, systemic issues in HL2RP come from the existence of nonconsensual PKs and the idea that some invisible force can just decide that your character's dead now, and your only reprieve is hoping someone somewhere fucked up, and that the arbitrary rules that decide when they can snatch your character away from you have been broken

i take a lot of issue with the modern sentiment i've heard about "The Revolving Door of Characters"
this idea that characters NEED to die for the server to stay alive is insane to me, because it's inherently predatory

think of it like this, right:
YOU hold the view that HL2RP should be gruelling and unfair and characters should die and it should be grimdark sad bad bad sad times
i think you're totally allowed to do that, you can kill off your characters as much as you want and put them through all the torment you like!
but do you think you have a right to force others to do the same thing? would you be upset if you opted to do the thing you wanted to do, while others opted to do the thing they wanted to do?

the main reason the server is planning on cordoning off S2RP and S2K is specifically so the people who enjoy different things can do those different things without treading on the other
you can extrapolate that to many other avenues of roleplay
i won't yuck your yum, but don't try to force your yum down my throat, that kinda thing



concretely i know there'll be a roll system, that's for sure
it'll be concrete enough that admin intervention will effectively be
"admin, the guy im fighting is breaking the rules and refusing to roll/ignoring a result"
*admin checks logs*
"oi, quit it"

no need to 24/7 watching over a fight, it'd be about the same amount of intervention as someone getting stuck on a prop

Bound to fail, your vision is just glorified VR chat, kumbayah. HL2 have a certain setting and making it based on 'NOT EVERYONE HAVE TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS WORLD'S SETTING' is just straight out delusional.
How dare I force people to be roleplaying in grim dark world, after Alien's invasion and occupation?
Like, idk this is HL2 mane, you can't just have people 'opting out' to do things that are actively going against the setting and game's logic.

Roll system is much worse than S2K, not to mention that someone's skills and stats can be nerfed, so they won't be doing Joe Wick in middle of citadel with just a glock. There's so many ways to make it work, roll and some elaborate DnD style combat ain't that.

 

[MaXenzie]

Bound to fail, your vision is just glorified VR chat, kumbayah. HL2 have a certain setting and making it based on 'NOT EVERYONE HAVE TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS WORLD'S SETTING' is just straight out delusional.
How dare I force people to be roleplaying in grim dark world, after Alien's invasion and occupation?
Like, idk this is HL2 mane, you can't just have people 'opting out' to do things that are actively going against the setting and game's logic.

Roll system is much worse than S2K, not to mention that someone's skills and stats can be nerfed, so they won't be doing Joe Wick in middle of citadel with just a glock. There's so many ways to make it work, roll and some elaborate DnD style combat ain't that.

i think we're best agreeing to disagree mate

 

[Hęłupiąż]

i think we're best agreeing to disagree mate

If you disagree with notion that 'People should be participating in HL2 World Setting', then I hope you don't have a say in this project tbf.

 

[Berke]

oh boy do I love engaging on ideological discourse on very trivial topics. welp, too late to back out now. first of all thanks for taking the time to put out a well pointed argument and reply.

Bear in mind that the post I am making is mostly about your stance about PK's and what roleplaying should look like on the server on the first half, not S2K and S2RP debate. I have made my opinion clear on that topic in my previous post.

i disagree with this.
i roleplay on HL2RP in spite of it being draconian, confrontational, and actively hostile to its playerbase. i would vastly prefer if people were generally cooperative and held less of a "fuck you, got mine" attitude when it came to things like character death or story development. there is a gulf of a difference between a scene that is awful for your character to be in, and a scene that's awful for your enjoyment or mental health, which i generally think should be avoided wherever possible.

Roleplay isn't a zero-sum game, it is possible for everyone to have fun without one party being stuffed into a sack and kicked repeatedly

i derive no enjoyment from the trudgery of being abused on the regular, i don't find it fun and it's part of why historically the characters i've made have all been incapable of being abused, either due to lack of human psychology or only interacting with characters played by people i personally trust

It is not about a zero sum mentality. In HL2RP you are not always killed for the benefit of the other party, you can be permanently killed for a number of honestly trivial reasons. That adds to the experience. Survival is hard, dying is very easy. Odds are stacked very very tall against you. This might be frustrating at first, but when you overcome the odds the rewards are all the sweeter. Think of it like a souls game. HL2RP is a soulslike of GMOD roleplay scene. You are expected to enjoy the 'awful' parts of roleplay too coming into the server. Ever played Kenshi? I find it very similiar to HL2RP, especially in this community. You are abused and you face adversity at every turn, that makes positive outcomes more rewarding. This connects to my next point.

i prefer the former over the latter
i say with confidence that 90% of the crippling, systemic issues in HL2RP come from the existence of nonconsensual PKs and the idea that some invisible force can just decide that your character's dead now, and your only reprieve is hoping someone somewhere fucked up, and that the arbitrary rules that decide when they can snatch your character away from you have been broken

i take a lot of issue with the modern sentiment i've heard about "The Revolving Door of Characters"
this idea that characters NEED to die for the server to stay alive is insane to me, because it's inherently predatory

Look, losing your characters suck. Especially the ones you had spent copious amounts of time on. But just like life, the prospect of death, of oblivion at the end gives meaning to the time we spend. If we remove the factor of nonconsensual PKs, what point is there? You basically remove all the risk in the gamemode. The sword of damocles hanging over your characters head FORCES you to act rationally and pick your battles. That is important in this gamemode which tries to simulate HL2 universe. Every little victory is amplified tenfold, because you did not only succeed at your task but also evaded certain death, as certain death is mostly the punishment for everything in HL2RP.

Another aspect of the server and the whole community I noticed is, when you create your character their story does not belong to you. You play the character yes, but other characters can impose situations on you that you may not like. That forces you to adapt to the circumstances and explore other avenues of roleplay, making for a more interesting experience. It is not like your character is killed by some external factor you could not foresee. If your character is permanently killed, either they have transgressed the combine or they have a storyline with others that end with your death.

What I am saying is, if you give people the option we all will have immortal characters around. As this is not a PvE game that we can roleplay fighting against some evil, we will get bored eventually. Other players and character deaths give us that challenge, pushing us out of our comfort zone. Consensual PK systems work in friend groups or forum RP, but I do not see it working in the context of GMOD HL2RP roleplay.

think of it like this, right:
YOU hold the view that HL2RP should be gruelling and unfair and characters should die and it should be grimdark sad bad bad sad times
i think you're totally allowed to do that, you can kill off your characters as much as you want and put them through all the torment you like!
but do you think you have a right to force others to do the same thing? would you be upset if you opted to do the thing you wanted to do, while others opted to do the thing they wanted to do?

the main reason the server is planning on cordoning off S2RP and S2K is specifically so the people who enjoy different things can do those different things without treading on the other
you can extrapolate that to many other avenues of roleplay
i won't yuck your yum, but don't try to force your yum down my throat, that kinda thing

I am not opposed to the implementation of S2RP, IF it can be implemented properly that would suit the spirit of serious roleplay better than S2K systems I have my two cents to contribute to that conversation. Whether S2K or S2RP, the PK system changing in such a way would not benefit the community for the reasons I stated above and more.

About S2RP, I have a few problems come up in my mind. I read about the system about rolls and stats, but still that leaves us with a few problems.

-MinMaxing and Luck

With an attribute based approach to the combat system, we may have unstoppable combat characters in the server. Do not be fooled with me saying 'may' we WILL have such attempts. Steps need to be taken to prevent this. Also the luck factor can lead to very frustrating and unrealistic results.

-Powergame
Both in P2L and S2RP, I foresee that there will be many problems with this in a very high stake environment. I do not need to clarify much on that. One way that can be used to combat this problem is introducing a 'mentor' position like in Willard, basically a member of staff without many privileges whose responsibility is to referee all combat over the server constantly, but I think you can guess why that is unfeasible.

-- Metagame

S2RP and P2L takes more time compared to S2K. That WILL lead to copious amounts of metagame, people will stall and delay for their buddies to come save their ass. Also S2RP and P2L situations tend to have more meta in them because the nature of such roleplay is open with the plans and intentions of the characters, leading to never ending fights and FailRP most of the time. This leads me to my next point

- Timescale

How is timescale is going to be standardized? I cannot count the times I was involved in shenanigans involving timescale for hours on end because people just do not properly P2L, they P2W. I can think of ways to regulate points I made above, but I can't think of a way that can regulate timescale properly. This is the biggest problem being faced here IMO. With S2K timescale is standardized, it is real time until one of the sides die/get knocked out. With S2RP things can get VERY complicated.

-Complexity

Also, let us be frank. People come here to have fun, and the whole point of HL2RP is that it provides serious roleplay opportunities without much mechanical knowledge or an overwhelming amount of rules. Not saying S2K is a perfect system, but its far more practical to execute than S2RP serverwide. It is quick and decisive, leaves little up for debate. I wonder how the problems above will be addressed without a ridiculous amount of byzantine rules and oversight. It is not newbie friendly at all.


I know it might be a bit funny that I am saying this at the end but take what I say with a huge grain of salt. I am an oldfag and I was not even here for the last iteration. These are just my opinions on the vision laid out by the new iteration, I just want it to be good as it can get because I love this community and I wish to experience the new iteration once it comes out. I do not remember much of the new staff team bar a few names including you but I think you guys are cooking something good here, my intention is not to bash what you laid out but simply trying to point out a few things that stand out to me.

 

[john]

use a dice system, cant argue with rolls

 

[hewrrra]

i propose a solution that is rooted in a character sheet and dnd. when making your character, you have attributes to pick out from -- strength, intelligence, dexterity, all the usual crap. in addition to that, you have another screen where you can dump points into intimidation, all that. your stats from that sheet are added into your rolls. also, a turn order, which, in like dnd, is determined by your rolls. during your turn you can move, do an unique action (whatever that would imply in the case of a half life server, could just scrap this completely) and you can attack

 

[Bio Junior]

i propose a solution that is rooted in a character sheet and dnd. when making your character, you have attributes to pick out from -- strength, intelligence, dexterity, all the usual crap. in addition to that, you have another screen where you can dump points into intimidation, all that. your stats from that sheet are added into your rolls. also, a turn order, which, in like dnd, is determined by your rolls. during your turn you can move, do an unique action (whatever that would imply in the case of a half life server, could just scrap this completely) and you can attack

Sounds like the Willard thing tbh

 

[hewrrra]

Sounds like the Willard thing tbh

i don't think willard's combat system is rooted in dnd..? i might be wrong though

 

[Sil]

brief two-cents. S2K in the past has undeniably been abused through the use of exploits and even hacks. A surprising amount of people have, just for that advantage in S2K. S2RP, however, can't be. I would rather it take longer and lose in a fight fairly than it be over in 6 seconds because someone used an ESP or exploited a command.

 

[Bio Junior]

i don't think willard's combat system is rooted in dnd..? i might be wrong though

This seems like DnD based

 

[hewrrra]

This seems like DnD based

not really, it's just action points and movement points, as well as a turn order. sloppard's system is rooted in s2k

 

[PepicWalrus]

For some reason I stopped getting notifications for this.

This seems like DnD based

We have no current plans for a turn based system like Willards. It's something I think is a neat idea but I don't know if the execution is properly done. Ironically despite After-Life initially taming inspiration from XCOM I dont find it fitting combat wise.

i propose a solution that is rooted in a character sheet and dnd. when making your character, you have attributes to pick out from -- strength, intelligence, dexterity, all the usual crap. in addition to that, you have another screen where you can dump points into intimidation, all that. your stats from that sheet are added into your rolls. also, a turn order, which, in like dnd, is determined by your rolls. during your turn you can move, do an unique action (whatever that would imply in the case of a half life server, could just scrap this completely) and you can attack

This is in our plans. There will be five Stats and a set of skills alongside traits you choose from. We'll be using a d10 system. 1d10+stat+skill. Instead of crit successes or crit fails we'll have Exploding and Imploding included. Exploding is when you roll a 10 you get to roll another 1d10 and add it. Imploding is when you roll a 1 you roll another 1d10 and subtract it.

I want this to also apply out of S2RP as well.

What I am saying is, if you give people the option we all will have immortal characters around. As this is not a PvE game that we can roleplay fighting against some evil, we will get bored eventually. Other players and character deaths give us that challenge, pushing us out of our comfort zone. Consensual PK systems work in friend groups or forum RP, but I do not see it working in the context of GMOD HL2RP roleplay.

I am not opposed to the implementation of S2RP, IF it can be implemented properly that would suit the spirit of serious roleplay better than S2K systems I have my two cents to contribute to that conversation. Whether S2K or S2RP, the PK system changing in such a way would not benefit the community for the reasons I stated above and more.

I do mostly agree with you in regards to death and PKs. I do not desire a P2K system where the character owner has to consent to dying. But I do think a distinction between nonconsensual and unfounded is needed. PKs, regardless of S2K or S2RP a PK should in my opinion come from the result

1. Your own actions.
Be it a direct hostile action, risky action, association, or putting yourself in harms way. (This is probably the cause of majority of deaths that occur.) In some way your choices lead you to death even if you don't verbally consent to it.

2. The result of another's actions.
Be it directly towards you or you're caught in the crossfire. If another player does something and you get impacted for it that contributes to a story. You were a casuality to their terrorist attack, your friend has an enemy now. The actions of others impacted you.

What I want to not see is "random" death. There have been times in the past where deaths have happened when they didn't really need it. An example I can think of was during HL2RP² there was an event going with most of the rebel group. One rebel stayed back and another staff member was engaging with them. They essentially failed two rolls and were killed while everyone else was busy. That is the sort of stuff I do not want to see.

Vs a time in Early Days before it died we had a genome in the sewers and a group were attacking it. Things went south for the group and they started to retreat except one guy. He had several rolls where he was grabbed, got free, and then continued to attack. Eventually after several chances to get away the genome crushed his head and shoved him into his chest mouth. That is the kind of PK where player choice was the result.

I can also think back to Helix 3, Linntrix's Iteration where someone bombed the ration hall and people got caught in the blast. One character I knew survived it but his face became badly burned for the rest of the iteration. This was the result of player actions impacting others.

I think a take away here is also the problematic one was staff inflicted.

About S2RP, I have a few problems come up in my mind. I read about the system about rolls and stats, but still that leaves us with a few problems.

-MinMaxing and Luck

With an attribute based approach to the combat system, we may have unstoppable combat characters in the server. Do not be fooled with me saying 'may' we WILL have such attempts. Steps need to be taken to prevent this. Also the luck factor can lead to very frustrating and unrealistic results.

-Powergame
Both in P2L and S2RP, I foresee that there will be many problems with this in a very high stake environment. I do not need to clarify much on that. One way that can be used to combat this problem is introducing a 'mentor' position like in Willard, basically a member of staff without many privileges whose responsibility is to referee all combat over the server constantly, but I think you can guess why that is unfeasible.

-- Metagame

S2RP and P2L takes more time compared to S2K. That WILL lead to copious amounts of metagame, people will stall and delay for their buddies to come save their ass. Also S2RP and P2L situations tend to have more meta in them because the nature of such roleplay is open with the plans and intentions of the characters, leading to never ending fights and FailRP most of the time. This leads me to my next point

- Timescale

How is timescale is going to be standardized? I cannot count the times I was involved in shenanigans involving timescale for hours on end because people just do not properly P2L, they P2W. I can think of ways to regulate points I made above, but I can't think of a way that can regulate timescale properly. This is the biggest problem being faced here IMO. With S2K timescale is standardized, it is real time until one of the sides die/get knocked out. With S2RP things can get VERY complicated.

-Complexity

Also, let us be frank. People come here to have fun, and the whole point of HL2RP is that it provides serious roleplay opportunities without much mechanical knowledge or an overwhelming amount of rules. Not saying S2K is a perfect system, but its far more practical to execute than S2RP serverwide. It is quick and decisive, leaves little up for debate. I wonder how the problems above will be addressed without a ridiculous amount of byzantine rules and oversight. It is not newbie friendly at all.

In regards to minmaxing I'm sure you're right people will stat themselves for combat. However I do want to make it so there's benefits for everything. By investing in one thing you're losing out on something else. If someone stats entirely for combat then they likely will be dependent on others for everything else and if they can find people to fill those gaps for them then great. But we do want a system that encourages diversity in builds but not being a master of everything. The economy is going to be resource and Crafting heavy.

However I also don't think a combat spec will be unkillable as it's written on paper right now. You additional health but you aren't walking around with 500 HP. I believe I have it written current that at 10 Body you get an additional 150 HP and a natural resistance to a damage type of choice. 1-5 giving purely stat increases 6-10 include abilities / perks for each attribute.

I'll group powergaming, metagaming, and timescale together. I think a current problem with S2RP is that it has always been rather undefined. You're pulled into S2RP, and use /roll to determine the outcome. It NEEDS a ref to oversee it. We want to have gameified systems and a clear outline of a lite rules system so people can ref themselves and if a problem arises the situation can be looked over by staff retroactively.

Timescale for existence could be part of the initiative system. While I don't want a restrictive turn system as Willard has it we do need a turn order system. When an S2RP is started a timescale can begin. The longer it goes on the greater the timescale increases. Taking actions advances the turn order to catch up. People CAN join but they'll be put ahead on the timescale and have to wait till timescale catches up to them. I think I can make a visual representation later. This encourages people to act quick and keep up with timescale. Because yeah you could stall for someone to show up but they can't act for a long time since you stalled and the opposition may get you first and also by doing this and powergaming you've let your opposition know they'll have something else to deal with coming up rather then just keeping pace in timescale. Something that'll need fleshing out but that is the idea that comes to mind. Game systems like this to combat these problems.

As for complexity that is something I am conscious of. The specifics of the system still need to be worked on but rules Lite is what I desire. Something like Mork Borg is probably the best level of fitting. An easy to understand, pick up, and play. Ideally something that can be put on 1 page when boiled down.

Also at the end of the day I want to do tests pre launch of the system. We'll have tech tests and pre launch tests first for a feel, Feedback, changes. Also things like the plan for inner city S2RP vs outlands S2K can always change if it creates problems.

I know it might be a bit funny that I am saying this at the end but take what I say with a huge grain of salt. I am an oldfag and I was not even here for the last iteration. These are just my opinions on the vision laid out by the new iteration, I just want it to be good as it can get because I love this community and I wish to experience the new iteration once it comes out. I do not remember much of the new staff team bar a few names including you but I think you guys are cooking something good here, my intention is not to bash what you laid out but simply trying to point out a few things that stand out to me.

And this is exactly what we want to hear. Not just agreements but vocalized concerns, ideas, feedback so it can be discussed and refined.